Used Tlc Lower Spindle Moulder for sale (18,053)

Condition: ready for operation (used), Number of sanding units 4 St. sanding width 190 mm Sanding height max. 180 mm Control ja weight 3300 kg Dimensions (L/W/H) 2600x920x1890 mm Dust suction hood 2x180, 2x120 mm Löwer DSM 2004 Double-Sided Sanding Machine ----- 4-Belt Sander + Disc Unit (Top/Bottom) Manufacturer's Description: ----- Double-sided, four-belt, single-wood sander for sanding solid wood such as window frames, etc. Highly stable, top-quality design with innovative details. Suitable for high continuous loads, even with high material removal rates. - Sequentially arranged grinding units for roughing, fine grinding, and finishing, each from above and below 1. Belt grinding unit with heavy steel roller 2. Belt grinding unit with rubberized roller and shoe 3. Finishing unit with fiber brush (see optional equipment below) - Direct-drive grinding rollers for slip-free power transmission - Maintenance-free and wear-free CERMET-coated grinding shoes with very good thermal conductivity and absolute dimensional accuracy - External cooling of the grinding zones for cooler grinding and longer belt life - Forced pneumatically controlled grinding belt oscillation - Effective grinding dust extraction directly at the grinding rollers - Airborne dust extraction at the tension rollers - Integrated brushing and finishing unit with large grinding dust extraction - Motorized grinding thickness adjustment via precision threaded spindles and large linear ball bearing sets on hardened and ground precision shafts with dust and Dirt protection - Chip removal adjustment at the bottom via precision threaded spindle with dimension display via scale ring (0.1 mm resolution) - Sanding belt tension via pneumatic cylinder with constant tension pressure - Sanding belt change with pneumatic belt release in seconds - Sanding belt tracking adjustment during belt change - Electropneumatic compressed air monitoring - Infeed protection via contact roller for workpieces that are too thick - Workpiece transport via calibrated, non-slip and adhesive conveyor belts over heavy-duty cast iron tables with a finely planed surface and spring-loaded pressure rollers with fine adjustment Gjdpfx Asvu Hgbolbjuc - Cardan shaft drive for smooth and consistent workpiece transport - Geared feed motor with infinitely variable speed 4-20 m/min - All motors electrically protected - Ergonomically arranged operating elements - Digital thickness display (0.1 mm resolution) with modern magnetic tape system Technical data: ----- - Sanding belt speed 22 m/s - Sanding belt length 1800 mm - Sanding belt width 200 mm - Working width 190 mm - Sanding thickness 2-180 mm - Four brake motors for drive 5.5 kW - Feed motor 1.5 kW - Feed speed 4-20 m/min - Automatic height adjustment 0.37 kW - Two brush units with fiber brushes D 120 x 200 mm at 0.37 kW each - Extraction ports 2 x 180 mm, 2 x 120 mm - Extraction air velocity 20 m/s - Pneumatic connection 6 bar - Working height 870 mm - Length (with soft disc 2740 mm) 2600 mm - Length with control unit (with soft disc 3035 mm) 2985 mm - Width 880 mm - Height 1910 mm - Weight approx. 3300 kg - Operating voltage 400 volts, 50 Hz, 3P - CE compliant Equipped with the following special options: -----...

Year of construction: 1994, condition: good (used), Sheetmetalworking tooling Multi V Lower tooling 75 x 75 x 3100 mm MACH-ID 4131 Type: Multi V Lower tooling 75 x 75 x 3100 mm Gsdpfxozc Izte Albouc Year: 1994 Total length:3100mm Total hight:75mm Length: 3100mm Width: 75mm Height: 75mm Please Note: The information on this page has been obtained to the best of our ability and belief, and from the manufacturers where possible. It is given in good faith, but its accuracy can not be guaranteed. Accordingly, it will not form a representation or constitute contractual terms. We advise you to check any vital details!

Condition: good (used), Sheetmetalworking tooling Multi V Lower tooling 140 x 140 x 6000 mm Total length:6000mm Total hight:140 x 140mm V-size: 8 - 10 - 16 - 20 - 24 - 30 - 40mm Please Note: The information on this page has been obtained to the best of our ability and belief, and from the manufacturers where possible. It is given in good faith, but its accuracy can not be guaranteed. Accordingly, it will not form a representation or constitute contractual terms. We advise you to check any vital details! Guodpfxezc Izgo Albec

Condition: used, sanding width 150 mm Motor output 1 kW Gusdoy Umfvepfx Albjc tiltable up to 90 Grad Three-dimensional, swivel-mounted Löwer type KS 225 edge sanding machine for precise sanding of straight and curved wooden edges. The lightweight design and powerful motor enable a uniform sanding pattern with high removal rates. Ideal for small joineries, furniture construction and interior fittings. Possible applications: Horizontal edge, horizontal plane or vertical bevel.

Condition: ready for operation (used), Design: vertical press with four columns. The vertical press platen is driven by an electric motor, the lower platen can be pulled out with the tool. Gujdpfx Aotty Nkolbjc -Dimensions: 2100x1600x3000mm -plate size: 950x1120mm -Electrical data: 380V; 43A; 22kW

Condition: used, Frame sanding machine LÖWER RSM 280 SX -used- Frame sanding machine sanding pad, oscillation, frame sanding device, feed belt, belt cleaning ----- Technical data ----- Sanding width: 190 mm, Godpfxsu R Tbhj Albouc max. workpiece thickness: 120 mm, Speeds: 6,11,16 m/min, Motor: 5.5 kW, weight: 550 kg

Condition: excellent (used), CATALOGUE NUMBER: 6507 TECHNICAL DATA SURFACE PLANER: - shaft width: 510mm - rollers in the bottom table - original cast iron tilting fence - table length: 1810mm - both tables adjustable THICKNESSER: - max thickness of workpiece on thicknesser: 200mm - cutterhead guard on the thicknesser from above: - pawls - geared infeed roller - pressure bar Guodpfx Aey N Rb Dslbjc - planer cutterblock - pressure bar - smooth outfeed roller from below: - 2 adjustable rollers in the bottom table - 2 feed speeds - main motor: 2.95kW - dimensions (LxWxH): 1940x1200x1120mm - weight: 970kg Net price: 13,900 PLN Net price: 3,300 EUR Net price calculated at 4.2 PLN/EUR (in case of significant exchange rate fluctuations, the price may change)

Condition: new, I am offering a brand new Siemens SIMOTICS motor (1FE series) – a professional servo/spindle motor designed for inverter duty. This is a high-grade industrial motor, commonly used in CNC machine tools, delivering high power, precision, and reliability. The motor comes from warehouse stock (New Old Stock – NOS), unused and stored in original Siemens packaging. ⚙️ Technical Data Manufacturer: Siemens Series: SIMOTICS Model: 1FE1114-6WW11-1BN2-Z-T56 Power: 20.9 – 26.8 kW Voltage: 425 V Current: 58 / 85 A Nominal speed: 1000 rpm Max speed: 6000 rpm Max torque: 330 Nm Duty cycle: S1 / S6-40% Cooling: water-cooled Temperature sensor: KTY84-130 Protection rating: IP00 Insulation class: F (155°C) 📦 The set includes: Siemens SIMOTICS motor Original Siemens packaging (as shown in the pictures) 📌 Key advantages: Godsyxqmxspfx Albsuc ✔️ Condition: NEW (warehouse stock / NOS) ✔️ Made in Germany ✔️ Genuine Siemens industrial quality ✔️ Ideal for CNC / machine tools / automation ✔️ High power and torque

Condition: used, Colour: Grey Polishing sander Löwer FA 4 S Year of construction 1998 Machine no. 9667 400V, 14.5Amp. Gsdpfx Alewnh Avjbouc 4x 0.37kW motor Working length 3000mm Dimensions: 5000x18050x1600mm (LxWxH), weight 550kg - Documentation available: Yes - CE certificate present: No Financial information VAT: The price shown is exclusive of VAT VAT/margin: VAT deductible for entrepreneurs Delivery and trade-in always possible for everything in the industrial sectors Yorick Diebels

Condition: new, Number of sanding units 8 st. sanding width 180 (260) mm Sanding height max. 160 mm Dimensions (L/W/H) 3065x1600x1900 mm weight of the machine ca. 1500 kg LÖWER Leistomat SD ----- Automatic fine grinding machine for wood grinding (smoothing, defibering and Edge breaking) or intermediate sanding of profiled window bars. With soft disc Technology for the visible surfaces as well as automatically safe profile and Width adjustment. - 2 lamella roller units on the side, each 0.75kW, L=120mm, D=200mm 1 softisc unit Ø=200mm above 0.75kW, 1 slat roller unit L=200mm top 0.75kW, 1 soft disc unit Ø=200mm bottom 0.75kW, 1 slat roller unit L=200mm bottom 0.75kW, 2 lamella roller units on the side, each 0.75kW, L=120mm, D=200mm - Linear guidance of all grinding units Linear ball bearing sets on hardened shafts - time-controlled immersion of all lamella roller units directly above the incoming workpiece edges. By the It is possible to immerse the aggregates deeper into the profiles to be able to deliver. - Motorized workpiece thickness adjustment of the machine - variable grinding flap speed via frequency converter for adjusting the grinding intensity using frequency converters (separate for discs, surface rollers and side rollers) - Disc aggregates as soft discs with Velcro fastener for Grinding wheels (wood pulp) - Feed via three lower and one upper conveyor belts and Spring-loaded pressure rollers with infinitely variable speed 4-15m/min - Parameters that can be set using the touch panel are workpiece thickness, Workpiece width (left side units individually), immersion depth Side units, spindle speed, feed speed - Saving the parameters as machine programs in program mode - Working in automatic mode with non-contact Workpiece width detection and profile detection as well as automatic Adjustment of the sanding units to the workpiece width and the Profile shape (workpiece height is set in advance) - pneumatically clocked driven feed roller, automatic Clamping of the workpiece and feeding in after unit adjustment - Red/green indicator lights to indicate operational readiness - shortest workpiece length 380mm - Transport belt width 200mm - max. workpiece width 180mm (260mm in the envelope process) - Workpiece height 12-160mm - Suction connection 4 x 100mm and 2x80mm diameter - Sensor-controlled tool blow-off directly on the discs - Length (case) x width x height (mm): 3065x 1600 x 1900 Complete length: 4365mm (including roller conveyor with integrated workpiece width detection) - Weight: 1500kg - Operating voltage 400V, 50Hz, 3P, air connection 6 bar - CE version ----- Price of the above machine on request! ----- Special accessories with additional costs: Set of replacement slats for Leistomat SD-200 consisting of Area aggregates: 30 strips EH45 / 200 - 7 (rolls) 30 strips EH45 / 200 - 20 (rolls) Folding units: 96 strips M55 / 120 - 4 SmartFlex slat disc Ø200 solid with 30 grooves 50mm long Gjdpfx Alovnv Uhjbouc Set of replacement slats for SmartFlex slat disc consisting of 60 strip M35 / 50 K 180-7 p Sandpaper disc VB for soft disc D=200mm grit 220 with velor backing (Velcro), pack of 100. Sandpaper disc VB for soft disc D=200mm grit 280 with velor backing (Velcro), pack of 100. ----- Price of the above-mentioned special accessories on request! -----...

Condition: excellent (used), Merand Baguette Machine in good working condition Gusdpfx Aokzh Eholboc

Condition: like new (used), Globe Baguette machine in good working condition for more information please sent a request Godpfx Asumn Duolbjuc

Condition: reconditioned (used), Year of construction: 1982, functionality: fully functional, overall weight: 950 kg, Sanding belt length 2200 mm, sanding belt width 400 mm, table length 1200 mm, usable height 120 mm, sanding width 390 mm, sanding belt speed approx. 21 m/sec, feed speeds 6 - 11 - 16 m/min, main drive motor 7.5 kW, feed motor 0.26 - 0.55 - 1 kW, pneumatic belt oscillation and belt air-blast, frame support, chassis. Godpexq Ehxsfx Albeuc

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 1996, double-sided top and bottom sanding with sanding shoe and dust brush Gusdpexfl Easfx Albjc max. sanding width 300 mm max. sanding height 200 mm year of manufacture 1994 with CE mark

Condition: new, Number of sanding units 1 St. Gedpfx Aloytx Ufjbouc Profile width 390 mm Profile height max. 390 mm

Condition: new, Number of sanding units 2 St. sanding width 290 mm Sanding height max. 180 mm LÖWER-DoubleSander Solid DSM 3000 ----- Two-sided single wood sander for sanding Solid wood such as window wood etc. Stable Top version with long casting tables, brushing and finishing device and conveyor belt feed. Suitable for high Gjdpfx Alsyrty Tsbeuc Permanent load even with higher chip removals. - Staggered sanding and finishing units at the top and below - directly driven rubberized sanding rollers for slip-proof free power transmission - Combined grinding via roller and shoe for high chip removal with a flat intervention zone at the same time - maintenance and wear-free CERMET-coated grinding wheels shoes with very good thermal conductivity and absolute Dimensional accuracy - External cooling of the grinding zones for cooler grinding and longer sanding belt service life - force-guided pneumatically controlled sanding belt oscillation - effective sanding dust extraction directly on the Grinding rollers - Airborne dust extraction on the tension rollers - Integrated brushing and finishing device with large Grinding dust extraction - motorized grinding thickness adjustment via precision threaded spindles and large-sized linear ball screws bearing sets on hardened and ground precision shafts with dust and dirt protection - Adjustment of the chip removal at the bottom via precision Threaded spindle with dimension display via scale ring (Resolution 0.1mm) - Sanding belt tension via pneumatic cylinder constant clamping pressure - Sanding belt change with pneumatic belt relaxation Within seconds - Adjustment option for the sanding belt run Band change - electro-pneumatic compressed air monitoring - Anti-running protection via contact roller if it is too thick workpieces - Workpiece transport via calibrated non-slip and non-stick fixed conveyor belts over heavy, 1000mm long cast iron tables with a finely planed surface and spring-loaded Pressure rollers with fine adjustment - Cardan shaft drive for smooth and consistent Workpiece transport - Feed gear motor infinitely variable for quick adaptation to different types of wood - all motors electrically protected - Ergonomically arranged controls on the workpiece inlet side - digital thickness display (resolution 0.1mm) with modern Magnetic tape system Technical data: - Sanding belt speed 22 m/s - Sanding belt length 1800mm - Sanding belt width 300mm - Working width 290mm - Grinding thickness 2-180mm - two brake motors for 7.5 kW drive - Feed motor 1.0 kW - Feed speed 4-20 m/min. - automatic height adjustment 0.37 kW - two brush units of 0.37 kW each with fiber brushes D 120 x 300mm - Suction nozzles 2 x 120mm and 2 x 150mm - Pneumatic connection 6 bar - Working height 850mm - Length 2105mm - Length with control panel 2490mm - Width 980mm - Height 1910mm - Weight approx. 1650 kg - Operating voltage 400 volts, 50 Hz, 3P - CE version ----- Price of the above machine on request! ----- Special accessories with additional costs: Workpiece blow-off - using nozzles from above and below at the machine outlet arranged, pneumatically controlled Sanding belt blowout via nozzles directly on the radii of the tension rollers inside the suction arranged, timer controlled on/off 5 seconds each, can be switched on separately Disc unit for defibering - two gr...

Condition: new, Number of sanding units 4 St sanding width 190 mm Sanding height max. 2 - 180 mm LÖWER - DoubleMaster DSM 2000 DB ----- Double-sided single wood sander with additional Transverse brush sanding unit (discs) and Longitudinal brush sanding unit (roller) for sanding Solid wood such as B. window wood etc. Stable top version with long cast tables and Conveyor belt feed. Suitable for high continuous loads even with higher chip removals. 1. Belt sanding unit with CERMET sanding shoe pre-sanding 2. Disc aggregate cross grinding for defibering 3. Rolling aggregate longitudinal grinding for directional finish Direction of growth - Staggered sanding and finishing units at the top and below - directly driven rubberized sanding rollers for slip-proof free power transmission - Combined grinding via roller and shoe for high chip removal with a flat intervention zone at the same time - maintenance and wear-free CERMET-coated grinding wheels shoes with very good thermal conductivity and absolute Dimensional accuracy - External cooling of the grinding zones for cooler grinding and longer sanding belt service life - force-guided pneumatically controlled sanding belt oscillation - effective sanding dust extraction directly on the Grinding rollers - Airborne dust extraction on the tension rollers - integrated brush grinding device (transverse and Longitudinal) with sanding dust extraction - motorized grinding thickness adjustment via precision threaded spindles and large-sized linear ball screws bearing sets on hardened and ground precision shafts with dust and dirt protection - Adjustment of the chip removal at the bottom via precision Threaded spindle with dimension display via scale ring (Resolution 0.1mm) - Sanding belt tension via pneumatic cylinder constant clamping pressure - Sanding belt change with pneumatic belt relaxation Within seconds - Adjustment option for the sanding belt run Band change - electro-pneumatic compressed air monitoring - Anti-running protection via contact roller if it is too thick workpieces - Workpiece transport via calibrated non-slip and non-stick fixed conveyor belts over heavy, 1000mm long cast iron tables with a finely planed surface and spring-loaded Pressure rollers with fine adjustment - Cardan shaft drive for smooth and consistent Workpiece transport - Feed gear motor infinitely variable for quick adaptation to different types of wood - all motors electrically protected - ergonomically arranged controls on the Workpiece inlet side - digital thickness display (resolution 0.1mm) with modern Magnetic tape system Technical data: - Sanding belt speed 22 m/s - Sanding belt length 1800mm - Sanding belt width 200mm - Working width 190mm - Grinding thickness 2-180mm - two brake motors for 5.5 kW drive - Feed motor 1.0 kW - Feed speed 4-20m/min. - automatic height adjustment 0.37 kW - Brush sanding units Disc D=max. 200mm Roller D=max. 270mm - Suction nozzles 2 x 120mm and 2 x 180mm - Pneumatic connection 6 bar - Working height 870mm External dimensions: - Length 2600mm Gedjyrty Hjpfx Albeuc - Length with wheels 2985mm - Width 880mm - Height 1910mm - Weight approx. 1500 kg - Operating voltage 400 volts, 50 Hz, 3P - CE version ----- Price of the above machine on request! ----- Special accessories with additional charge: Workpiece blow-off - ...

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2002, machine/vehicle number: 10229, functionality: fully functional, operating hours: 25,000 h, power: 13 kW (17.68 HP), input voltage: 400 V, input current: 32 A, input frequency: 50 Hz, type of input current: three-phase, grinding belt width: 200 mm, grinding belt length: 1,800 mm, grinding height: 190 mm, height adjustment type: electric, actuation type: electric, total height: 1,890 mm, total length: 2,070 mm, total width: 1,020 mm, overall weight: 1,500 kg, Equipment: CE marking, documentation/manual, The machine is in very good condition, has been used only a little, with the option of refurbishment upon agreement. Gujdoyt Hkuspfx Albjc

Year of construction: 2008, condition: good (used), functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 10999, DESCRIPTION Double-sided grinding machine / grinding machine top/bottom Manufacturer Löwer Type DSM 3000 with workpiece return Bthgq0Ygu0 Working width: 290 mm Grinding thickness: 2-200 mm Shortest workpiece length: approx. 320 mm Equipped with: 1x grinding unit from above, 7.5 kW 1x brushing unit from above, 0.37 kW 1x grinding unit from below, 7.5 kW 1x brushing unit from below, 0.37 kW Grinding belt dimensions: 300 x 1800 mm Electric height adjustment, 0.37 kW Adjustable feed, 6/11/16 m/min. Compressed air: 6-8 bar Dimensions approx. 2700 x 1100 x 1900 mm Gedsv Dfp Hopfx Albsuc Weight approx. 1600 kg

Condition: used, Moulder IDC000075 - manufacturer: Wadkin - model: GA 220 Gedpfx Aletwy T Rebsuc - 4 years ago made renovation

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2010, machine/vehicle number: 11176, Offer 25439 Guodsyapx Ujpfx Alboc Technical data: - Abrasive diameter: 150 mm - Swivel head – grinding unit pivotable and tiltable on articulated arm - Dust drawer - Disc speed infinitely adjustable - Table dimensions: 1400 x 980 mm - Table height approx.: 870 mm - Drive: 400 V / 0.75 kW - Pneumatic connection: 6 bar - Space requirement approx.: W 1700 x H 1700 x D 1300 mm - Weight approx.: 400 kg

Condition: new, Number of sanding units 2 St. sanding width 190 mm Sanding height max. 2-180 mm LÖWER double-sided grinding machine DSM 2000 ----- Double-sided single wood sander for sanding Solid wood such as window wood etc. Stable top quality Guide with long casting tables, brushing and finishing equipment and conveyor belt feed. Suitable for high continuous loads even with higher chip removals. - Staggered sanding and finishing units at the top and bottom - Directly driven rubberized grinding rollers for slip-free power transmission - Combined grinding via roller and shoe for high chip removal at the same time flat intervention zone - Maintenance and wear-free CERMET-coated sanding shoes with very good thermal conductivity and absolute Dimensional accuracy - External cooling of the grinding zones for cooler grinding and higher grinding Grinding belt service life - Forced pneumatically controlled sanding belt oscillation - effective sanding dust extraction directly on the sanding rollers Airborne dust extraction on the tension rollers - Integrated brushing and finishing device with large sanding dust extraction - Motorized grinding thickness adjustment via precision threaded spindles and large-sized linear ball bearing sets on hardened and ground precision shafts with dust and dirt protection - Adjustment of the chip removal at the bottom using a precision threaded spindle Dimension display via scale ring (resolution 0.1mm) - Sanding belt tension via pneumatic cylinders with constant clamping pressure Guodpevu Hdtsfx Albsc - Sanding belt change with pneumatic belt relaxation in seconds - Adjustment of the sanding belt run when changing the belt - electro-pneumatic compressed air monitoring - Run-in protection via contact roller for workpieces that are too thick - Workpiece transport via calibrated non-slip and non-stick conveyor belts over heavy, 1000mm long cast tables with a finely planed surface and Spring-loaded pressure rollers with fine adjustment - Cardan shaft drive for smooth and even workpiece transport - Feed gear motor with three different feed speeds for quick adaptation to different types of wood - all motors electrically protected - Ergonomically arranged controls on the workpiece inlet side - automatic workpiece thickness scanning (no previous measurement necessary) - Digital thickness display (resolution 0.1mm) with modern magnetic tape system Technical data: - Sanding belt speed: 22 m/s - Sanding belt length: 1800mm - Sanding belt width: 200mm - Working width: 190mm - Grinding thickness: 2-180mm - two brake motors for drive: 5.5 kW - Feed motor: 1.0 kW - Feed speed: 6, 11 and 16 m/min. - automatic height adjustment: 0.37 kW - two brush units with fiber brushes D 120 x 200mm at 0.37 kW - Suction nozzle: 2 x 120mm and 2 x 150mm - Pneumatic connection 6 bar - Working height: 850mm - Length: 2105mm - Length with control panel 2490mm - Width: 880mm - Height: 1910mm - Weight: approx. 1500 kg - Operating voltage: 400 volts, 50 Hz, 3P - CE version ----- ----- Basic price of the machine on request! ----- ----- Special accessories with surcharge: continuous feed 4-20 m/min. for speed adjustment to the previous machine Price on request Workpiece blow-off - using nozzles from above and below at the machine ...

Condition: new, Number of sanding units 1 st. sanding width 150 mm Sanding height max. 150 mm Loewer edge finishing machine MiniSpin N ----- Machines for finishing and fine sanding of Edges and profiles with a grinding spindle horizontal or vertical. Motor 0,75 KW Spindle in vertical position for machining edges Pivoted spindle in horizontal position, laterally etc. for processing longer profile bars or Conjunction with a combined grinding head for grinding of edges with a grinding disc blades Grinding head swiveling + / - 20 ° for editing oblique lines Working height / width 150 mm Gjdpfx Alexmk Ayjbjuc max. Diameter roller / brush

Condition: good (used), Spindle / Spindle 3.5 - 16 - 10 kVA Gjdpfx Alsp I T Rqsbsuc 2750 - 14660 - 23660 rpm Inspection is possible by prior appointment at my warehouse!

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1975, with new feed carpet, not installed Gjdevwgczepfx Albsuc second hand Make Löwer Type RSM 280 S Year of construction 1975 Machine no. 3528 Number of belt units 1 piece Engines 5.5 hp Sanding width approx. 140 / 150 mm Grinding height approx. 120 mm band oscillation tape blow-off Feed speed 6 / 11 / 16 m/min. Band length approx. 1600 mm Band width approx. 160 mm Extraction connection D 100 mm Space requirement approx. LxWxH mm 1400x1000x1600 Weight approx. 650 kg Storage location 97447 Gerolzhofen Handover in the current condition as seen without guarantee and guarantee - free loaded -