Used Log Bandsaw Mill for sale (11,940)

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2012, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 1205-H740-00, total width: 1,650 mm, total height: 2,700 mm, total length: 2,500 mm, overall weight: 6,000 kg, travel distance X-axis: 500 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 100 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 50 mm, controller model: ANDRONIC 2060, nominal power (apparent): 12 kVA, LANG RM 400 S/Y CNC engraving and milling machine - Operating voltage: 230/400 V - Frequency: 50 Hz - Travel range X-axis: 500 mm - Travel range Y-axis: 100 mm - Travel range Z-axis: +-50 mm, relative to the center axis of the RGV/200 mm - Swivel radius of the control panel: approx. 1050 mm - Travel speed X and Z axes: max. 30 m/min - Travel speed Y-axis: max. 20 m/min - Acceleration X/Y/Z at 10 m/s² Gujdpozlglzefx Al Ajd Attention: The item must be collected between October 7th and October 14th, 2026, on a date to be determined. FCA D-35576 Wetzlar - loaded onto a truck.

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2019, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 00820028221, turning length: 800 mm, turning diameter: 500 mm, spindle speed (max.): 20,000 rpm, travel distance X-axis: 490 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 100 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 845 mm, mount diameter: 63 mm, workpiece weight (max.): 100 kg, total height: 2,400 mm, total length: 7,000 mm, total width: 2,500 mm, overall weight: 10,000 kg, controller manufacturer: DMG MORI, controller model: ERGOLINE, input voltage: 400 V, input frequency: 50 Hz, input current: 125 A, nominal power (apparent): 74 kVA, operating hours of spindle: 10,397 h, distance between spindles: 1,020 mm, number of slots in tool magazine: 48, Equipment: chip conveyor, documentation/manual, DMG MORI CTX BETA 800 TC CNC turning and milling center - Maximum workpiece diameter: 500 mm - Maximum workpiece offset from the spindle flange: 120 mm - Travel distance X1: -10/+490 mm - Travel distance Y1: +-100 mm - Travel distance Z1: 845 mm Guedezlghcjpfx Al Asd - Travel distance Z2: 600 mm - Travel distance Z3: 800 mm - Tool holder: HSK 63 The machine is equipped with a tailstock, a main spindle, and a milling head. Includes the tool holders in the tool changer, as well as a chip conveyor, coolant system, and filter extraction. Note: The item must be picked up on a date to be determined between October 7th and October 14th, 2026. FCA D-35576 Wetzlar – loaded onto a truck.

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2016, functionality: fully functional, Precision machining center HSC 30 linear 5 axes Siemens 840D Travel range X/Y/Z 320 /300 /280 mm B-axis: +/- 120° C-axis: 360° Rapid traverse rate 50 m/min Spindle speed range 0 - 40,000 rpm AC main drive with 19.5/15 kW and 16/12 Nm Incl. spindle cooling and rotary union Tool holder HSK-E 40 according to DIN69893 Linear axis drive package Tool magazine, 30 positions, double gripper Gusdezlhmmepfx Al Ajd Active cooling unit for main spindle and linear drives Direct absolute linear encoders 3D control Quick-change system EROWA ITS 150 Measuring probe Blum TC 52 Blum laser Interface for handling system EROWA IKZ 40 bar Electronic handwheel Coolant gun Compressed air Production package EROWA Robot Compact 80 50 pallet positions for ITS 148

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1997, functionality: fully functional, For sale a round log sorting line by Nurminen. 40 pockets, Scanner Finnos Fusion CU-2 with X-Ray was reinstalled in 2022. Speed 100 m/min. Maximum log input length - 6.1 m, Minimum log input length - 2.4 m, Gedpfx Aljxgt U Es Ajud Maximum log diameter- 550 mm,, Log handling - Stationary crane, Transversal loading feeder, Number of cross conveyor chains- 6, Conveyor length of the loading cross conveyor - 34.198 m, Log singulation Log measurement - in-line, Sorting line length - 140 m, Ejectors in the sorting line - Yes, Number of ejectors in the sorting line - 40, Rundholz-Sortierboxen - Concrete, steel; Sorting boxes - 40, Box length max - 7 m Box width max - 2.5m Box height max - 1.2m Continuously variable feed, Sorting by - Quality, Diameter, Length; Space requirement Length - 180 m, Space requirement Width - 30 m,

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2003, CNC lathe Gildemeister CTX 400 Series 2 with – FANUC i 21 control and Sauter turret with 12 stations, 6 of which have powered tools. The machine is immediately ready for use, is still connected to power and can be inspected. FANUC control 6 powered tool stations Tool measuring arm Extensive accessory package Technical data: Year of manufacture: 2003 Spindle speed: 25 – 5,000 rpm Turning diameter over bed: 570 mm Turning diameter over cross slide: 420 mm Travel X/Z: 220 / 635 mm Spindle bore: approx. 65 mm Main spindle: 21 kW Torque: 240 Nm ⚙️ Equipment: Hydraulic 3-jaw chuck Ø 250 mm (incl. interchangeable jaws, soft and hard) Disc turret, 12-fold VDI 30 Tailstock (550 mm travel, MK4) Coolant system Chip conveyor Accessories included: Various tool holders (also powered) Documentation Dimensions & Weight: approx. 3250 x 1750 x 2300 mm Godozlhf Aspfx Al Ajud Weight: approx. 5,300 kg

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2007, x-travel 1350 mm y-travel 560 mm z-travel 510 mm Control Heidenhain iTNC 530 total power requirement 13 kW Gedpfx Alszlb Dfe Asud weight of the machine ca. 5 t

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2018, Sub-spindle, Y-axis, C-axis FANUC 31i B-NT-SmartX control Turning diameter max 225 mm Turning length -656 mm Chuck Diameter -210 mm Main-spindle speeds 4'500 rpm Gsdpjvwkirefx Al Aeud Sub-spindle speeds 6'000 rpm Turret head 1+2: 24 positions with 12 driven positions each Robot for workpiece loading Tool presetting device Misc. accessories MARCELS MASCHINEN CH

Condition: used, x-travel 500 mm Godpfx Aljzk Rfvo Aeud y-travel 300 mm z-travel 400 mm Spindle Speed 32-1.600 UpM

Condition: new, Number of milling spindles 2 St. fence 1 ja workpiece ja Stegherr Cross rung milling machine TYPE KSF-mini including standard stop with 2 sliding stops, without tools With the KSF-mini, all of those that occur in practice can be used Crossbar connections can be made quickly and precisely. The Precise execution is achieved by having the workpiece in one Clamping is machined on three sides. The tool is driven by two three-phase motors; the tension of the Workpieces pneumatically. The profile cutter is designed for the web width. The saw blades that... If you carry out flattening, spacer rings are used to match the dimensions of the Profile milling cutter adjustable. The swivel device is free of play. The machine is designed for a maximum workpiece cross section of 56 x 46mm. Voltage Europe: 400V(+/-10%)/3Ph/50Hz, USA: 440V(+/-10%)/3Ph/60Hz Other voltages on request. Operating instructions in German or English. Guedpfxsyrtzqo Al Aed Table base EUR 1.070.00 Foot switch EUR 900.00 Adjustment optics EUR 130.00 Profile milling cutter in HM-Wepla version, available for selection: Ø 5,7,9,11,13 mm. Price per piece EUR 650.00 1 set of replacement insert knives for profile milling cutters (=10 pieces) EUR 190.00 HM saw blade, price EUR 170.00 per piece (For a web of e.g. 10 mm, 3 saw blades are required) Setting the machine to the tools provided by the customer, price EUR 700.00 per individual tool Packaging in a crate (suitable for land transport) EUR 650.00 Packaging shrink-wrapped on a pallet (only within Europe, not for air freight) EUR 340.00 Pricing ex works, unpacked, uninsured, for delivery within Germany plus the VAT valid at the time of delivery. (all technical information according to the manufacturer, without guarantee!)

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2009, Parts shown by hand not come. Gsdpfezlbzqox Al Asud Technical details are shown on pictures.

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2008, travel -x axis 2.100 mm travel -z axis 1.400 mm travel -y axis 1.200 mm control HEIDENHAIN - iTNC 530 numbers of positions in the tool changer 92 tool taper SK 50 BIG PLUS max. tool length 600 mm max. tool diameter 250 mm max. tool weight 20 kg rotary table dia. 1.700 mm Gjdpjzlkwzjfx Al Aeud max. swing dia. 1.800 mm total connected load 100 A 5-axis simultaneous machining center | REIDEN - BFR-22 equipped with 2-axis swivel head (A+B), NC - rotary table, 92-way tool changer, double gripper, ITC and chip conveyor. Scope of delivery: - probing system The machine is in good condition and can be inspected under power. Please refer to further technical details in the attachement of the offer. A machine video from the production plant will be shared on request. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #Tags: BFR 22 | BFR22

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2008, Ref. -No.: 10657 Manufacturer: EMAG Type: EMAG VTC 250 Year of construction: 2008 Type of control: CNC Control: Siemens Sinumerik 840D Storage location: Hakberstadt Country of origin: Germany Turning Length: 630 mm Tool Taper: VDI 40 Turret places: 1 Pcs Number of tool stations: 12 pc Turning Speeds: 5000 RPM Chuck diameter: 250 mm Further information: - The machine features an overhead drive spindle with a tailstock at the bottom. - Coolant tank, approx. 1,000 L, including - a paper filter roll. - Clamping devices: Hainbuch clamping top, including various centering tips - Gripping devices on the turrets for feeding and removing raw and finished parts during magazine operation. - Magazine loading - Vertical pick-up lathe, which can generally be easily upgraded for automatic loading and unloading. Gedozkthgjpfx Al Asud The machine can be viewed while powered on by prior arrangement.

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2010, Ref. -No.: 10646 Manufacturer: DMG Type: DMU 125 FD duoblock Year of construction: 2010 Type of control: CNC Control: Siemens Sinumerik 840D Storage location: Halberstadt Country of origin: Germany X-Travel: 1250 mm Y-Travel: 1000 mm Z-Travel: 1000 mm NC swivel rotary table: 1250 O Tool Taper: HSK - A100 Numbers Of Tools In Magazin: 40 Spindle Speed: 12000 RPM Main Drive: 44 kW Internal cooling: 40 bar Further information: - Universal milling head with controlled B-axis - Tool changer with horizontal double gripper - Taper cleaning for HSK-A 100 - Safety enclosure - Coolant tank, 600 L - Chip conveyor - Rotating viewing window - 3D path control - Heidenhain TS 649 DMG infrared probe - Siemens 840D electronic handwheel Godezkpxnopfx Al Ajud - Flushing gun with pump The machine can be viewed in operation by appointment.

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2004, Ref. -No.: 10604 Manufacturer: UNION Guedpfx Alszkpv Ho Asd Type: TC 110 Year of construction: 2004 Type of control: CNC-Steuerung Control: SINUMERIK 840 D Powerline Storage location: Halberstadt Country of origin: Germany X-Travel: 2000 mm Y-Travel: 1250 mm Z-Travel: 1000 mm W-Axis: 550 mm Table Height: 1050 mm Spindle Diameter: 110 mm Table Dimensions (Lengthxwidth): 1600 x 1250 mm Number of T-slots: 10 Max. Workpiece Weight: 6000 kg Clamping Area: 1250 mm T - groove width: 22 mm T - slot spacing: 125 mm Tool Taper: ISO 50 Max. Torque: 1639 Nm Feed Speeds X/Y/Z Axis: 6000 mm / min Rapid Traverse X-Axis: 15000 m / min Rapid Travel Y-Axis: 15000 m / min Rapid Traverse Z-Axis: 15000 m / min Feed Capacities X/Y/Z: 16000 x 16000 x 20000 N swivel angle: 360 ° Further information: Includes angle head 0,001° The machine can be viewed under power.

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2010, Ref. -No.: 10287 Manufacturer: DMG Type: DMC 210 FD Year of construction: 2010 Type of control: CNC-Steuerung Control: Heidenhain Mill Plus Guodpjzkpupjfx Al Ajd Storage location: Halberstadt Country of origin: Deutschland X-Travel: 2100 mm Y-Travel: 2100 mm Z-Travel: 1250 mm Machine length: 11.000 mm Machine width: 5.000 mm Machine Height: 3.500 mm Max. Workpiece diameter: 2500 mm Max. Workpiece Weight: 6.000 kg Max. rotary table diameter: 1.850 O Table speed range: 250 min/-1 Tool Taper: HSK-A100 Tool Piece Magazine With: 183 Pcs./pcs. Spindle Speed: 12.000 RPM Max. Torque On The Boring Spindle: 288 Nm Max. Torque: 2.000 Nm Feed Speeds X/Y/Z Axis: 30.000 mm / min Max. Workpiece height: 1.460 mm axes: 5 Further information: Turning and milling center incl. pallet changing system Gear spindle Coolant treatment system, with belt filter, 710 x 50mm 1 Knoll 600S2 chip conveyor 2 Losma oil mist extraction units 1 steel platform (storage space for clamping device): 5,300 x 2,900 mm - Axes renewed 11.2024 - New encoder, electrical components renewed - Geometry protocols available Machine is still in production and under power. The machine can be viewed at any time by appointment.

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 1995, x-travel 14000 mm y-travel 5000 mm z-travel 1500 mm w-axis 3000 mm column daylight 4000 mm column: max. dist. table - spindle nose 4500 mm workpiece weight 100 t table dimension - longitudinal 9000 mm table dimension - cross 3000 mm spindle taper ISO SK 50 spindle turning speed range 2-2500 U/min spindle motor 113 kW spindle diameter 200 mm max. torque on the spindle 9500 Nm feed in x - axis 1-10000 mm/min feed in y - axis 1-10000 mm/min feed range Z-direction 1-10000 mm/min rapid traverse 20000 mm/min height over floor 8600 mm control SIEMENS 840C weight of the machine ca. 360 t ATTACHMENTS angular milling head yes autom. tool clamping yes ball spindles yes guideway covers yes coolant unit yes high pressure cooling syst. (through spindle) yes closed cabin yes chip conveyor yes TECHNICAL DESCRIPTION 2 portal milling centres, each with 3 table pallets 9000 x 3000 mm: - Tool changer with 420 tools - Head pick-up system - Video monitoring via camera - High pressure lubrication unit for inner cooling 70bar AVAILABLE HEAD UNITS: - Fixed angle head HS800C600 105 Kw 600 long - Fixed angle head HSD350C850 50 Kw 850 long - Fixed angle head HSD 40C880 12 Kw 880 long - Fixed angle head HSD 190C1000 30 Kw 1000 long - Vertical spindle unit VS800C 105 Kw 900 long - Universal spindle unit USIO40C 20 Kw B-axis rotatable at 1° at a time - Angle spindle unit SO800C905 - 22,5° fix - Angle spindle unit HSE1200CS -25° fix - Universal spindle unit (fork milling) USP475C 75 Kw 1/2° Hirth --> 1.350 1/min , B-Achse 0,5 Grad Hirth Guodpfxsvwgm Hs Al Ajd One additional drilling extension SE 350C plus 1 SE500C. DESCRIPTION OF CONDITION In 2011/2012 these 2 identical machines were retrofitted The milling length was extended to 14meters and an automatic changing system for table pallets was installed. Both machines can be seen under power by prior appointment.

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2005, x-travel 6000 mm y-travel 3500 mm z-travel 1500 mm Gsdpfovwglvox Al Aeud control SIEMENS 840D table load 12 t height over floor 6300 mm table dimension - longitudinal 5000 mm table dimension - cross 2500 mm no. of tables 2 tool change unit 200 -fach weight of tools max. 30 kg tool taper HSK A 100 diameter of tools max. 250 mm workpiece length 500 mm spindle turning speed range 5-6000 U/min c-axis -10 bis 370 ° b-axis 5 bis -95 ° column daylight 3000 mm distance spindle nose and table 1500 mm weight of the machine ca. 161 t dimensions of the machine ca. 20.5 x 11 x 6.3 m This WALDRICH-COBURG Valutec portal milling machine is in very, very good condition and can be beautiful condition and can be inspected by arrangement with the seller.

Year of construction: 2020, condition: ready for operation (used), - USED - TRAVELLING COLUMN MILLING MACHINE LONGITUDINAL TRAVEL: 12000 mm TRANSVERSAL TRAVEL: 1600 mm VERTICAL TRAVEL: 3600 mm RAPID FEEDS L-T-V: 30 m/min TABLE SIZE: 13000 x 2500 x 300 mm SPINDLE: 450 - 5000 rpm; 34 kW; 830 Nm; ISO 50 HEAD: UNIVERSAL AUTOMATIC A/B AXIS ; MILLESIMAL POSITIONING TOOL MAGAZINE: CHAIN-TYPE ; 100 POS CONTROL UNIT: HEIDENHAIN TNC 640 HIGH PRESSURE COOLANT: 40 Bar Gsdozbnr Ajpfx Al Aoud WEIGHT: 87480 Kg ACCESSORIES: SWARF CONVEYOR ; LASER TOOL SETTER ; PAPER FILTER ; TOUCH PROBE ; PORTABLE HANDWHEEL NOTE: ROTARY TABLE 1500X1500, 1,5 rpm, MAX ADMITTED LOAD 15.000 Kg; HEAD LOADING/UNLOADING DOUBLE CRADLE; MOBILE WORKING PLATFORM; PERIMETER FENCES; STATIC RTCP OF ROTATING TABLES; STATIC RTCP IN THE SPACE ; AUTOCAL; VIBRATION DETECTION PROBE; COOLING TANK 1500L; GREEN MODE FUNCTION

Condition: excellent (used), Catalogue number 7248 TECHNICAL DATA - max. workpiece height: 160 mm - spindle working length: 250 mm - spindle diameter: 40 mm - max. tool diameter: 220 mm - worktable (length/width): 420x1010 mm - motor: 11 kW - 2 pneumatic workpiece clamps - extraction port diameter: 180 mm Guodszh H A Espfx Al Aod - dimensions (L/W/H): 1500x1010x1560 mm - weight: 689 kg ADVANTAGES – German manufacture – Used milling machine, in very good condition Net price: 31,900 PLN Net price: 7,590 EUR depending on exchange rate of 4.2 EUR (Prices may change in case of significant exchange rate fluctuations)

Condition: excellent (used), CATALOG NUMBER 7393 TECHNICAL DATA Cross-cut saw: max saw blade diameter 350mm spindle 30mm tilt/adjustable blade right/left, up/down motor 1.5kW Spindle moulder: tenoning spindle: spindle diameter 40mm spindle working height 145mm max cutter diameter 400mm motor 3.7kW Guedpezh Hxaefx Al Ajd side carriage adjustable up/down clamp on the carriage table + fence with angle adjustment 600x400mm dimensions (L/W/H) 1700x2050x1260mm weight approx. 500kg ADVANTAGES – German-made – very good condition – used tenoning machine Net price: 7900 PLN Net price: 1880 EUR Net price calculated at 4.2 PLN/EUR (for significant exchange rate fluctuations, the price may change)

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2011, Technical details: standard turning dia.: 200 turning length: max. 810 mm control: MSX-701 MAPPS IV greates pass round over bed: 800 mm Max. distance between centres: 1130 mm max. turning diameter: 320 mm max. workpiecediameter: 300 mm bar material dia.: 65 mm Traverse X-Axis 1: 210 Traverse X-Axis 2: 210 mm Traverse X-Axis 3: 210 mm Traverse Y-Axis 1: 110 (+65/-45) mm Traverse Y-Axis 2: 110 (+45,/-65) mm Traverse Z-Axis 1: 300 mm Traverse Z-Axis 3: 300 mm Traverse Z-Axis 2: 810 mm Traverse B-Axis: 870 mm turning speed range - spindle: 5.000 1/min Number of spindle speed ranges: 2 . spindle nose: JIS A2-6 spindle bore: 73 mm spindle bearing diameter: 120 mm C-Axis: 0,001 ° turning speed range - spindle: 5.000 1/min spindle nose: JIS A2-6 spindle bore: 73 mm bar material dia. max: 65/52 mm spindle bearing diameter: 120 mm C-Axis: 0,001 ° Number of Turrets: 3 . Number of tool stations: 16 x 3=48 pos Schank height for square tool: 20 mm Diameter of boring bar: 32 mm turret changing time (4-stations): 0,18 sec Number of driven tools: 16 x 3=48 pos max. spindle speed driven tools: 6.000 U/min. Rotary tool machining ability: M16 / Ø16 . rapid traverse X-axis: 30 m/min rapid traverse Y-axis: 20 m/min rapid traverse Z-axis: 50 m/min drive capacity - spindle motor: 25 / 22 kW power capacity - driven tools: 7,5 / 5,5 kW total power requirement: 92,7 kVA weight of the machine ca.: 9,4 t dimensions of the machine ca.: 4,0 x 2,8 x 2,4 m Accerories Chip conveyor Coolantsystem C-axis in main and sub spindle part counter total counter tool setting Overhead partsgripper with conveyor belt. Spindle 1 Chuck SMW KNCS-N 210 / 52 mm Spindle 2 Collet Chuck Hainbuch Spanntop nova Kombi Axfix 65 Robot interface CNC Turning- and Milling Center MORI SEIKI NZ 2000 T3Y2 The NZ2000 T3Y has 2 spindles and 3 turrets, and 2 turrets have the Y-axis function and built-in milling motors. This not only allows synchronized machining using 3 turrets, but also achieves heavy-duty cutting and high-speed machining using rotary tools thanks to the built-in motor turrets. The robot cell has been diemanteled, it is now a stand alone machine. A bar feeder can be added. Gjdpfxezk U Rpj Al Ajud *

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2007, x-travel 200 mm y-travel 200 mm z-travel 400 mm Control Siemens 840 D total power requirement 84 kW weight of the machine ca. 19 t dimensions of the machine ca. 7,9 x 6 x 2,7 m Godpfey S Eczjx Al Asud

Condition: good (used), 4. Axle for DMU 80/100/125 Gjdpfx Alozkqc Ue Ajud Was installed on a DMU125 and is in perfect working order.

Condition: used, maximum load weight: 29,440 kg, overall weight: 35,500 kg, axle configuration: 3 axles, first registration: 01/2022, next inspection (TÜV): 07/2027, loading space length: 13,600 mm, total width: 2,550 mm, total height: 3,900 mm, Year of construction: 2022, Equipment: ABS, Euromix 3-axle timber trailer, 13.60 m First registration Gusdpfx Ajzkfi Ajl Ajd Unladen weight 6,060 kg Loading length 13,600 mm 8 steel bunks with steel supports, load capacity per pair of supports 9,000 kg KNORR trailer EBS SAF axles with large disc brakes, 430 mm 1st axle: lift axle Tires: 6 x 385/65 R 22.5, tread depth 100%, NEW Condition 1A, like new

Condition: used, Technical details: x-travel: 6500/13150 mm Gusdpfxjwc A Shj Al Asd y-travel: 4000 mm z-travel: 1250 mm w-axis: 2250 mm table surface area: 5500/12150 x 3000 mm max. workpiece weight: 70.000/105.000 kg ram head dimension: 480 x 510 mm milling spindle motor: 63 kW max. torque on the spindle: 3300 Nm tool taper: DIN 39871 AD ISO 50 milling head speed: 6,3 - 4000 U/min feed speeds: 1 - 24000 mm/min w-axis: 1 - 6000 mm/min. distance between columns: 3500 mm passage: 3000 mm total power requirement: 120 kW weight of the machine ca.: 245 t dimensions of the machine ca.: 29,0 x 7,7 x 8,1 m The machine is in mint condition and was generally overhauled in 2020! with CNC SIEMENS 840 D autom. tool magazine for 153 tool stations autom. milling head magazine for 6 heads milling heads - straight - straight extended length - milling head -angular head standard - 4000 rpm, 144 x 2,5°, ISO 50 milling head -angular small extended length -40 kW, 4000 rpm, 1800 Nm, 144 x 2,5°, ISO 50 milling head -universal index - 40 kW, 4000 rpm, 2100 Nm, C-axis 144 x 2,5° , B-axis +/- 44 x 2,5°, ISO 50 coolant attachment, chip conveyor *